Hi Jochen,

I have an issue importing data strait into CRP from Topodroid. I haven't tried all solutions (I don't have a DistoX at home making thing a bit complicated) but if I export from TopoDroid as a *.csv and try to import in CRP, CRP complain it is not the right format. So I have been exporting as a *.tro (VisualTopo) and imported it into CRP. The VT *tro format is accepted but the import mix up the data, shifting the measurements made at each station to the previous station. 1>0, 2>1 etc.
Not too sure why this is happening but here here is an example of the same file open in CRP and in VT.


I will send you the VT *.tro file by PM so you can have a look.

Which export format would you recommand to use to export from TopoDroid to CRP?

Regards

The Topodroid (.csv) export works for me. Imported to CRP with: 'Cavites - Importer - Topo'.

I just tested it all and it works just fine.

I noticed while importing an old *.tro file, containing data acquired over 2 decades using different acquisition modes, that the LRUD's were not always assigned to the correct station as defined in the VT configuration. CRP imports the LRUDs as if they all belong to the "Station", but in VT, LRUDs can be assigned to "Dep" (From=Refstation) or "Arr" (To=Station) or Inc (=unknown... not sure of that one). Also, each dataset/file can be divided in sub-datasets and the configuration can be different from one sub-dataset to the next.

More on that matters. *.tro file import process doesn't handle all acquisition configurations allowed by Visual Topo. I'm still discovering this complexity but here are some points to improve/fix the import process into CRP.
Unfortunately, I haven't found an English or German version of the manual and some points remain unclear to me on but here is what I understand from the parameters:

Sub-dataset parameters

In the sub-dataset header, many acquisition modes can be defined. There are 11 sub-dataset parameters following the Param tag

Distance Instrument

1 - Instrument Type:
- Topo = Topofil
- Deca = Ruler

2 - Topofil Calibration
- Empty if "Deca" selected
- Calibration in centimeter per graduation

Azimut

3 - Azimut Angular Unit
- Deg = degree min sec: e.g. 2,3000 = 02° 30' 00" = 2,5°
- Degd = decimal degree: e.g. 2,30 = 2,3°
- Gra = grads

Height difference device

The top header "Slope" is misleading as it can be a slope measurement... as well as a water depth or a height difference between stations.

4 - Device type
- Clino = Clinometer (angular measurement)
- Vulc = Vulcains topofil (angular measurement)
- Prof = depth gauge: Depth relative to water surface in metre (values are negative). If this parameter is set, the data should go in the Depth column instead of the Inclinaison, right?
- Deniv = delta height in metre between stations. Not sure how this can fit in the import process... maybe it requires some calculations to convert the height diff into an angular measurement and the results imported into Inclinaison column.

5 - Inclination Angular unit
- Deg = degree min sec: dd.mmss e.g. 2,3000 = 02° 30' 00" = 2,5°
- Degd = decimal degree: e.g. 2,30 = 2,3°
- Gra = grads
- Empty if "Prof" or "Deniv" as these are in metre.

Compass

6 - Magnetic declinason in Deg = dd.mmss: e.g. 2,3000 = 02° 30' 00" = 2,5°
I think this parameters shouldn't be used during CRP import process. Raw data should be imported and mag dec set in CRP Instrument section.

Acquisition mode

7 - Shot directions i.e bearing, height diff and width directions e.g "Dir, Dir, Dir" , "Dir, Inv, Dir" , "Inv, Inv, Dir"
- Dir = Straight
- Inv = Reversed
I have to admit this is a bit unclear to me and I don't masterize this part as I have mainly stick to Dir, Dir, Dir mode (works well with CRP) but I do have some sets of old data with many different modes. Maybe Eric David can clarify these settings.

8 - LRUDs:
- Arr = End point: LRUDs belong to the "To" station (=CRP mode)
- Dep = Start point: LRUDs belong to the "From" station, meaning the LRUDs have to be shifted to the correct station during the import process
- Inc = Unknown point... I'm not sure... need to ask Eric.

Display color

9 - Color for cave display:
- Std = Default
- 000,000,000 = custom color

Date

10 - Sub-dataset date
- Empty... no date set
- Date format: DD/MM/YYYY. This could be imported in the CRP Date column.

More Mag Dec param

11 - Mag Dec calculation mode
- M = Use the sub-header magdec.
- A = Automatic variation (I believe this works if Triangulation parameters are set)


Dataset parameters

In the dataset, there are some parameters that could be imported as well.

4 parameters can be found after the Down measurements, if not left empty :
- "I" = Change the section direction from all following shoots until next "I" is reached. (e.g. "">1;"">1;"I">-1;"">-1;"I">1;"">1) During the CRP import process, Direction (1 or -1) could be calculated from this parameter.
- "E" = Excluded from cave length calculation. > could be imported in CRP Status = "y"
- "D" = Detail... not sure what this is
- "S" = Calculate Vertical section... not sure what this is, VT crashed when I tried.

Comments

Following these 4 parameters live the Comments (Column "CP" in VT). They could be imported in CRP "Comments", apart for the comments found in sub-dataset headers. Maybe these sub-dataset header comment could be imported in CRP "Info" column first for the first shot of the sub-dataset to avoid loosing them in the import process.



Reference Point in VT vs CRP.

In VT file, it is very commun to find many shots with "From" Station = "To" Station. CRP import them as such and this create many Reference Points in CRP, messing up the X,Y,Z calculation and therefore the cave display. In VT, the reference point is set in the file header on line 6 (not sure it's always the case) and is defined as "Entree xxxxx" where "Entree" means "Entrance" and "xxxxx" is the station name used as Reference Points in VT.

Here are a few suggestions which I believe would improve the import process :
- Identify "Entree" as Reference Point in *.tro file
- Modify all other shots with "From" station = "To" station e.g "Entree" = 0.0 then "From" = 1.0 and "To" = 1.0 >> "RefStation" = 1.0* and "Station" >> 1.0

LRUDs
Further more, in VT, the survey shots with identical From and To stations (as described above) have Distance = 0, Azimut = 0, Inclination =0. This works well in VT for LRUDs but not in CRP. In CRP, LRUDs are orientated using Az =0° and Incl = 0°, which is not correct in 359/360 cases.
To fix this, during the import process, the Azimut and Inclinaison of the next survey shot could be used for the identical From and To stations survey shoot.

e.g.
in VT (Entree = 0.0)
From To Distance Azimut Inclination Left Right Up Down
0.0 0.0 0 0 0 2 4 5 1
0.0 0.1 5 127 15 2 5 3 1
...
1.0 1.0 0 0 0 1 2 3 4
1.0 1.1 10 059 -45 1 1 2 3

in CRP (Refrence point = 0.0)
RefStation Station Distance Azimut Inclination Left Right Up Down
0.0 0.0 0 127 15 2 4 5 1
0.0 0.1 5 127 15 2 5 3 1
...
1.0* 1.0 0 059 -45 1 2 3 4
1.0 1.1 10 059 -45 1 1 2 3


I hope this will help to make the VT *.tro import a smooth and painless process.

Zitat von CaveRenderPro im Beitrag #6

---

Here are some comments and questions:

I gave you all the parameters for your information but they are not all importable in CRP and some should be set in Instruments.

1 - Instrument Type:
- Topo = Topofil
- Deca = Ruler

--> If "Topof" is set, start and end will read. The divisor (e.g. 100) has to configure in instruments. I think nothing to do. Agreed.


2 - Topofil Calibration
- Empty if "Deca" selected
- Calibration in centimeter per graduation

--> The sag (e.g. 1%) has to configure in instruments. I think nothing to do. Agreed.

Azimut

3 - Azimut Angular Unit
- Deg = degree min sec: e.g. 2,3000 = 02° 30\' 00" = 2,5°
- Degd = decimal degree: e.g. 2,30 = 2,3°
- Gra = grads

--> This is interesting and easy to implement. Is Deg used common? I just came across an old survey from the 80's with a couple of azimuth down to the minute (i.e. 30'). But I don't think it's commonly used but I might be wrong: compass don't give such an accuracy and DistoX gives measurements in Decimal degree or Grads... but since it is a unit choice and easy to implement, at least it will be covered.

Height difference device

The top header "Slope" is misleading as it can be a slope measurement... as well as a water depth or a height difference between stations.

4 - Device type
- Clino = Clinometer (angular measurement)
- Vulc = Vulcains topofil (angular measurement)
- Prof = depth gauge: Depth relative to water surface in metre (values are negative). If this parameter is set, the data should go in the Depth column instead of the Inclinaison, right?
- Deniv = delta height in metre between stations. Not sure how this can fit in the import process... maybe it requires some calculations to convert the height diff into an angular measurement and the results imported into Inclinaison column.

--> The vertical orientation has to configure in instruments. I think nothing to do. agreed
--> Today CRP only support absolute depths. Are Prof and Deniv used common? In all cases I could transfer it to the field Depth.
"Prof" is definitely used to survey sumps. This is the value of the depth gauge at each station. When diving, depth is always relative to the water surface (= 0) of each sump.
"Deniv" I only encounter this used between two sumps, probably approximations d/t to lack of measuring devices available. I'm not too sure when this would be used.

5 - Inclination Angular unit
- Deg = degree min sec: dd.mmss e.g. 2,3000 = 02° 30\' 00" = 2,5°
- Degd = decimal degree: e.g. 2,30 = 2,3°
- Gra = grads
- Empty if "Prof" or "Deniv" as these are in metre.

--> This is interesting and easy to implement.

Compass

6 - Magnetic declinason in Deg = dd.mmss: e.g. 2,3000 = 02° 30\' 00" = 2,5°
I think this parameters shouldn\'t be used during CRP import process. Raw data should be imported and mag dec set in CRP Instrument section.

--> Nothing to do. Agreed

Acquisition mode

7 - Shot directions i.e bearing, height diff and width directions e.g "Dir, Dir, Dir" , "Dir, Inv, Dir" , "Inv, Inv, Dir"
- Dir = Straight
- Inv = Reversed
I have to admit this is a bit unclear to me and I don't masterize this part as I have mainly stick to Dir, Dir, Dir mode (works well with CRP) but I do have some sets of old data with many different modes. Maybe Eric David can clarify these settings.

--> Are "Dir, Inv, Dir" and "Inv, Inv, Dir" used common? I do have some sub-dataset using "Dir, Inv, Dir". These are for the measurements made in sumps. I suppose this is the surveying method of the diver.
I have not seen "Inv, Inv, Dir" yet.

8 - LRUDs:
- Arr = End point: LRUDs belong to the "To" station (=CRP mode)
- Dep = Start point: LRUDs belong to the "From" station, meaning the LRUDs have to be shifted to the correct station during the import process
- Inc = Unknown point... I\'m not sure... need to ask Eric.

--> Do you have an example file? Will PM you a file.

Display color

9 - Color for cave display:
- Std = Default
- 000,000,000 = custom color

--> Do you have an example for colour. How they can transfered to 1-16?
I don't know if this is communly used. But this is RGB decimal code (black = 0,0,0 ; white = 255,255,255; red = 255,0,0). I suppose if the color is Empty or "Std" then is CRP color = 1. For all colors, first "new" color could become CRP color =2, second "new" color could become "3", etc. I don't think implementing is essential and could be at the bottom of the list.


Date

10 - Sub-dataset date
- Empty... no date set
- Date format: DD/MM/YYYY. This could be imported in the CRP Date column.

--> This is easy to implement. Great

More Mag Dec param

11 - Mag Dec calculation mode
- M = Use the sub-header magdec.
- A = Automatic variation (I believe this works if Triangulation parameters are set)

--> Is there something to do? No, just wrote it for your information. as mentioned I don't think Mag dec should be applied during the import process

Dataset parameters

In the dataset, there are some parameters that could be imported as well.

4 parameters can be found after the Down measurements, if not left empty :
- "I" = Change the section direction from all following shoots until next "I" is reached. (e.g. "">1;"">1;"I">-1;"">-1;"I">1;"">1) During the CRP import process, Direction (1 or -1) could be calculated from this parameter.
- "E" = Excluded from cave length calculation. > could be imported in CRP Status = "y"
- "D" = Detail... not sure what this is
- "S" = Calculate Vertical section... not sure what this is, VT crashed when I tried.

--> I understand. Do you have an example file? Will PM you a file

Comments

Following these 4 parameters live the Comments (Column "CP" in VT). They could be imported in CRP "Comments", apart for the comments found in sub-dataset headers. Maybe these sub-dataset header comment could be imported in CRP "Info" column first for the first shot of the sub-dataset to avoid loosing them in the import process.

--> This is easy to implement. Great!


Reference Point in VT vs CRP.

In VT file, it is very commun to find many shots with "From" Station = "To" Station. CRP import them as such and this create many Reference Points in CRP, messing up the X,Y,Z calculation and therefore the cave display. In VT, the reference point is set in the file header on line 6 (not sure it\'s always the case) and is defined as "Entree xxxxx" where "Entree" means "Entrance" and "xxxxx" is the station name used as Reference Points in VT.

Here are a few suggestions which I believe would improve the import process :
- Identify "Entree" as Reference Point in *.tro file
- Modify all other shots with "From" station = "To" station e.g "Entree" = 0.0 then "From" = 1.0 and "To" = 1.0 >> "RefStation" = 1.0* and "Station" >> 1.0

--> Can this solved manually after import? It can be solved manually. But since the info is available to get it right in the import process, it would be great not to have to edit manually the data... but I understand it can be painfull for the dev to implement :)

LRUDs
Further more, in VT, the survey shots with identical From and To stations (as described above) have Distance = 0, Azimut = 0, Inclination =0. This works well in VT for LRUDs but not in CRP. In CRP, LRUDs are orientated using Az =0° and Incl = 0°, which is not correct in 359/360 cases.
To fix this, during the import process, the Azimut and Inclinaison of the next survey shot could be used for the identical From and To stations survey shoot.

e.g.
in VT (Entree = 0.0)
From To Distance Azimut Inclination Left Right Up Down
0.0 0.0 0 0 0 2 4 5 1
0.0 0.1 5 127 15 2 5 3 1
...
1.0 1.0 0 0 0 1 2 3 4
1.0 1.1 10 059 -45 1 1 2 3

in CRP (Refrence point = 0.0)
RefStation Station Distance Azimut Inclination Left Right Up Down
0.0 0.0 0 127 15 2 4 5 1
0.0 0.1 5 127 15 2 5 3 1
...
1.0* 1.0 0 059 -45 1 2 3 4
1.0 1.1 10 059 -45 1 1 2 3

--> I have to inspect the code, maybe there is an easy solution. finger crossed

---

The issue is that Prof/deniv are not similar:
- Prof is a delta height between the Station and the sump surface
- Deniv is a delta height between the RefStation and the Station.
so they have to be processed separately and can't live in the same column.

"Deniv" could be converted to Inclinaison during the import process: Inclinaison=sin-1(Deniv/Lenght), right? Easier said than done?

For the Prof (Depth), I don't like the idea of using an absolute altitude. Primarily because underground surveys are relative to the entrance/reference point and any changes, corrections or survey addition (e.g. loops) between the sump(s) and the reference point are likely to affect the Z values. Therefore all sums depths would have to be manually QC'd and (re)edited each time... and this leave a lot of room for errors. Maybe as you said it could be solved using Instrument defining which Passage/Station is used as a depth reference =0.

haha... I share the feeling.

That's also my understanding for the xxx,xxx,xxx parameters.
For Param "Dep", I had to scratch my head but it sounds like right.

The parameter I'm not fully sure of is the Param "Inc". Apparently this is an inheritance of an older version (I have some "Inc" in old but still valid datasets). I understand it is the "unknown" station and is the next station when following the path(s)/branch(es) from the entrance. So if the shots are acquired heading away from the entrance, the LRUDs would belong to the "To" station, and heading toward the entrance the LRUDs, LRUDs would belong to the "To". I suppose this is going to be complicated/impossible to implement as it seems to be determined by the full architecture of the survey, which you don't have at the import stage.

That's a great improvement! many thanks!